Application of patterns for self defense

Hi there,
I have discussed this many times on other forums, and would love to know what people in the TAGB thought of this.
My instructor is a great friend of Willie Lim, and we have had lots of seminars with him about application of patterns. Also, a friend of mine practises Kissaki Kai Karate, which focuses solely on Bunkai (application of kata). I have a book called "chang hon hae sul" by Stuart Anslow which looks into this well.
I feel that a lot of martial art practitioners are unaware about the amazing potential there is in applying the patterns. I am not talking about basic applications, such as the ones we are taught as colour belt - like a low block is to block a kick to the side.
How many people in class are shown the reason why we orient our hands in a certain way before we block? has anyone been shown locks, throws and takedowns hidden in their patterns?
try googling willie lim or bunkai or stuart anslow's book if you do not knwo what i mean.

It seems like a complete other world associated to TKD and I think there is already so much to learn that I can understand why it isn't in the "official" syllabus, but I would love to hear other people's opinions.

ive been to a couple of willie lim seminars. Found it interesting, and brings other ideas that you could use in 1step etc. As from a practicality point of view I think the moves are effective but you would have to train at it a heck of a lot to be able to use it in a real life self defence situation!

In my humble opinion I think that learning the applications to the patterns are essential. It is to me the primary purpose of them. Admittingly, still being quite junior in grade I do not know the alternative deeper applications to all of the moves of my patterns as of yet but I recognise that there is a process to pattern work. First is to learn it, second is to perfect it, and then finally third is to explore it. I am pretty much still at the first stage! I would assume that you only really start perfecting your patterns when getting close to your 1st dan. Once the grading pressures are off I can then see that time as the ideal point to fully explore the pattern applications.

I do have an awareness of possible pattern applications largely due to my instructors enthusiasm for them! I also own Stuart Anslow's book which I think is excellent. I also have Matt Sylvester's on my must buy list! I think it would be absolutely wonderful if the TAGB capitalised on this new enthusiasm for pattern applications in the TKD community and released their own book!

fantastic! I am so glad that people agree, and i must say i believe the same -
a) that it would take YEARS to really feel like it is second nature to you, which means lots of practise, rather than a couple of seminars (by the time we do the next I tend to forget what we did in the one before!)
b) Other tkd clubs are catching on, and with the TAGB being at the forefront, it would be great if we could join in properly, and we are already proud that we advance with the times!

I think the applications could easily be added to higher dan gradings maybe, just after the one step, and would be something that the student could develop on their own, a bit like the junior gradings where they have to make up their own patterns. When waiting 4 to 5 years to grade, it would give you enough time to concentrate on them. Saying that though, most 3rd dan and above have a teaching commitment, which makes it quite hard to train as much as before.

I do think there is a great opportunity for us all to explore the more realistic applications in our patterns.
I feel there are many reasons we do not, one being the frequency of gradings, having just enough time to learn the moves of our next grading pattern and set sparring, let alone the applications of each move. Also many instructors do not know the applications having never been taught them by their own instructor.
Having trained many years ago in Shotokan Karate i know the importance placed in karate on the application of kata {patterns}, and in my own TKD schools i do teach pattern applications to higher grade students i feel will understand what are sometimes quite radicle interpretations. I have had a very good response from those students, some of which had little interest in patterns previously. I feel i am very much a novice myself in this aspect of our great art but feel it's well worth exploring. With so much information available for those prepared to look i urge you look a little deeper into your patterns.

Interesting info Cavallin.
I'm another MAPster over here.

It would be interesting to include pattern applications instead of 2 step IMO. Without pattern apps we lose so much that should be in the art, much of which is self-defence relevant.

Just from personal observation I think there has been a definite increase in the number of locks and restraints being use in one step sparring at gradings. Unfortunately much of it is pretty poor because people haven't actually practiced it outside the one step environment, so their response to a punch is to put on a wrist lock. I think it's hard enough putting an arm bar on a resisting opponent, never mind a wrist lock, unless you've taken their attention with a strike first.

Personally I'd also like to see us train and grade on mats more; I'd love to use hip throws in my one step, but without something to throw my opponent onto I always shy away from them.

Hi Michele and PaFF

Mitch

Patterns applications are an essential part of training.

I hate it when students go "patterns are the traditional side" or "the art side".

It is highly unlikely Gen. Choi and his pioneers would have spent years developing patterns just because they look good. It would be a big waste of effort. I'm glad someone brought this topic up.

DavidP wrote:Patterns applications are an essential part of training.

I hate it when students go "patterns are the traditional side" or "the art side".

It is highly unlikely Gen. Choi and his pioneers would have spent years developing patterns just because they look good. It would be a big waste of effort. I'm glad someone brought this topic up.

To be honest I'm not sure Gen Choi and the others who designed the patterns had a great deal of background in the applications of the movements. This would not be surprising, given that they had studied under a Japanised Shotokan system that did not prioritise bunkai and used training methodologies that would not encourage exploring them. I think their applications were very much of the "block, punch" kind.

The origin of Shotokan in the Okinawan styles however, means that the bunkai did exist and can be rediscovered, both by Shotokan Karateka and TKDers, if we learn how to look at our patterns and explore the movements to this end.

Mitch